Filmmaker, technologist, and former Seattle Film Institute instructor, Steven Bradford on Circle Take Podcast

Our very first podcast

Here’s the very first episode of Circle Take recorded over a year ago with filmmaker, technologist and good friend Steven Bradford. We talk about modern filmmaking and how it relates to digital marketing. In subsequent episodes, we varied our focus to include strategists and implementers or creators of video and digital marketing.

Circle Take Podcast transcript (unedited)


Speaker 1:                           00:00:09              

Hello. Hello, and welcome to our first show. This is circle. Take a conversation about modern filmmaking. I am so excited to be here. You know I’ve never done anything like this before. I’ve thought about it, but I’ve finally decided to jump right in. So please go easy on me. If you have any feedback or comments, please let me know. We’re figuring it out as we go. What’s that? What’s that, Gordy? Oh, that’s Gordon, our British audio engineer, and he’s holding up a sign. Why are we doing this? Well, the reason I wanted to do this was to share some interesting information. What do we do? Making videos, small films, adverts, marketing, longer films. You know, it all seems so easy, but it’s not. You got to live and breathe this stuff every single day. You have to be receptive to new ideas and new or different ways to create.

Speaker 1:                           00:01:08              

It’s an endless quest for knowledge, and I’d love to share what I’ve learned over the years and have some great conversation with some interesting people. So wish me luck. Here we go. Today’s guest is one of those seasoned veterans who for the last decade or so, has been really giving back to the community in the way of mentoring and teaching at the Seattle Film Institute right here in the northwest. Stephen Bradford is a graduate of the USC School of Cinema, and as a working DP, cinematographer and a very creative guy. Besides all of this, he’s been a very dear friend for a long time. And now Steven Bradford, how have you seen the field of filmmaking change in the last five years?

Speaker 2:                           00:01:56              

Well, it’s interesting because people will tend to focus on the technical part of it and say, oh, there’s all this technical change and digital change. And that’s, and that’s real. But I think that the transition of the last 10 years has just accelerated, which is, it’s more about what you can deliver on the web and what you can deliver on, uh, various kinds of streaming platforms. And also what you can do as a small group or an individually without a lot of money. You can decide to do a feature and it can actually look amazing for small amounts of money. Uh, we just had one of our former students here, uh, who is, uh, works on fishing boats, his family as a fishing boat company, and went here about five years ago and he’s been sort of saving up money and raising money. And last year he shot a feature for a 125,000 and they’re finishing up the editing now, but it looks amazing. And I think that’s the thing is that it always used to be possible to make an expensive features,

Speaker 3:                           00:03:00              

but they always look inexpensive and now it’s, they look incredible and you just need to have them, you know? Then it just, again, of course, becomes about the script and the actors. But, uh, well let’s, let’s talk about where one of our four former students, what we’re talking about here, you’re a, have been here with, uh, Seattle Film Institute for [inaudible] Years. It’s eight years now, eight years. It’s amazing. And you guys first started in your humble beginnings over on Capitol Hill, right? I was there when we were in Capitol Hill. The originally had started out of the founder, David Schulman’s garage, or not garage, but his living room teaching a class about how to make movies in a, you know, a 10 week period, the basics of screenwriting course. And then he kind of moved around a few places and bought a building on Capitol Hill in like 2000 and uh, started a fulltime program, not a degree yet, but a full time program.

Speaker 3:                           00:03:57              

Uh, that was 10 months long intensive. Uh, uh, students come in, uh, learn and make like 10 movies and 10 months. Uh, it was pretty going all the way from super eight to super 16 and then now digital. So we’re now in this big complex, uh, at least seems big to us in. Uh, it’s an inner bay area, beautiful building. It’s right of red. It’s, it’s right up here. It’s, it’s amazing. I remember when you first were shopping around and he finally got this building and you were pretty integral in laying it out and, and the technical aspect of getting it all together here, it’s really is a cool place. And that’s, and that’s one of the things that’s changed too, as even if you are putting up a small studio that’s a professional studio or whether it’s in a home or you’re, you know, this was a custom build out of a building, but, uh, it’s amazing what you can do now.

Speaker 3:                           00:04:46              

Uh, you don’t have the requirements that you use to either for a huge amount of power, uh, to power, you know, 10,000 watt lights. Now we get away with LEDs. We, we put in a fair amount of power, but we’re like, really, Geez, we’re kind of over amped here. So, and also the size of just, you know, we, we have our audio equipment, we have our audio program. You know, you don’t need machine rooms anymore when you design a building. Uh, that’s, you know, everything is disappearing into the magic world of, of the Ethernet and the cloud and little digital black boxes. I remember a, um, a colleague of ours, Stacy Simpson at the time, she’s Bernstein now, but she invited me to come present at the old location up on Capitol Hill. And I remember pulling up to this house, cars parked over all over the place and I come in there and I’m literally in in an old front room of something with a cobbled together HD TV sitting there and I shared a demo reel and Kinda sat there and told war stories to all these young bright eyed students who, who, I don’t know if I made an impression on them, but they had their own agenda, it seemed like.

Speaker 3:                           00:06:01              

What do you find students kind of their, their take on on things? Do you, you know, in the sense of, you know, millennials or some kind of, you know, and we reflect back on how it was when we went to school, kind of learning from the masters, but now they come in and they already have a huge amount of, of education already that’s available on Youtube and whatnot in the craft of filmmaking. So when they show up, really what, what do you teach them? Right. Well, it’s really fascinating because, and I, I’ve thought about this quite a bit because I can think about it now, 35 years out of film school. And I think, Geez, what does that mean? That means that when I was in film school, Somebody’s 35 years back, that would have been 1945. And so I think, wow, that’s really a big gap between me and the students now.

Speaker 3:                           00:06:47              

And they come in in, yes, they do have the, you have your film fanatics, you know, who really have been there kind of the film geeks who have seen everything ever made. But there’s an interesting thing that occurs that I’ve noticed is that beyond the fact that there is now seems to be about twice as many films out there to have caught up on. Right. Uh, you would have, they also don’t necessarily have seen a lot of the films that you would think they would have that we call a classics. Uh, whether they’re classics of the eighties or classics or the 50s. And I think in the way that we felt that we did when we were that age, and one of the reasons is a lot of it used to be forced, fed to us over the air on the, a midnight movie into two o’clock movie.

Speaker 3:                           00:07:36              

And everything else. And there were three channels and a lot of places in two channels. And there was nothing to do, especially where I grew up in Arizona, where in the afternoon you didn’t want to go outside and in the summer, so you watched the two of you and you would see all these movies just because I was out, you didn’t have video games, you didn’t have anything else to do. And um, there were, you know, even fewer sports activities, you know. And uh, so you actually saw a lot of movies and uh, and then you had the theatrical houses, uh, everywhere in Tucson we had a new loft place and we had a university theater that was 50 cents and they would put out schedules and you would get a film education just by saying, oh, citizen Kane’s coming up in two weeks. And it came up every year, you know?

Speaker 3:                           00:08:20              

And so, but it was presented to you as a curated presentation by all these film houses willing in a place like La, you had like at least a dozen, you know, but every city had them. And so if you were at least like a little bit, they were called art houses or houses, Long Beach, Long Beach, uh, [inaudible] was it the art theater I think and may tell Long Beach, right. And so you had these places. So if you were a little bit interested in filming along to see foreign films, you would see the schedules and you would get caught up on the things you read in it. We’d be presented in a way that these are the things you’re supposed to z seven Samurai and this, uh, bridge on the river choir, whatever, you know. And they would also show sometimes like Hollywood movies, whatever. Well you, you, you got your film educated.

Speaker 3:                           00:09:00              

But a lot of people got it just by even what they saw on TV. You know, I first saw Dr Strange love on TV, but now you have to make that effort on your own. You know, it’s not pushed in front of you. And even though those things are even on the air when they are on the air, they’re on the air with 50 other 500 other channels. So it’s, it’s, it’s there, but in some ways it’s an embarrassment of riches. And, and, uh, I find that you’d be surprised at how many, uh, things they haven’t seen. And, uh, that doesn’t mean that they, I, I think that there are necessarily lacking, you know, we try to fill them in on the blanks. Uh, I also feel they come in with different exhibit experiences in different, whether it be being really good at playing video games or other things that they’ve done.

Speaker 3:                           00:09:44              

Um, mainly I find that the great thing is, is that there’s this great, um, Cultural Amnesia that new people create. You know, by New People. I mean, people who are born and then that don’t have a lot of baggage that come in, but what they have is enthusiasm. And, uh, and even the ones that are cynical, they’re not that cynical compared to us. Right. Um, they, they don’t really, they have all these real certain ideas and like, this is the way it should be. A lot of them and everything, and I’m going to be a big success. You know, and they, they have confidence in everything and they want to do it and they want to get out there and make things happen. Right. And, and I, I get a big charge out of that. I mean that energy that they have, that energy of being 20 and having everything in front of you and not have things be old hat or not say, oh yeah, VR, I remember when that was 25 years ago.

Speaker 3:                           00:10:38              

And I was like, you know, here it is again. You know, and do you ever get a sense or some students come in, come onboard and, and they kind of see something and they kind of go back to something almost like, you know, that the hipster throwback thing like they want to, Oh, you know, they might even see that the a aton cameras, 16 millimeter camera and the, Oh, I’d love to be able to shoot on film someday. And, and you know, or else like you said, it’s a lot of it is driven by the technology. But what is it that you’re finding in these students that, I mean they come in with a lot more ex kind of experiential knowledge of the right, you know, even I’m watching a bunch of, uh, behind the scene clips on 10 DVDs can get you a huge education in filmmaking behind the scenes of any movie where you see it and you go, okay, that’s how they did that shot. This is really important. This is nice. That’s how they did it. You know, you can watch 10 select movies and learn a heck of a lot from that. Right. But then you say the ones that come in and really don’t have, you know, some of them have that grasp for knowledge. Others just kind of wanted make it or what, what, what do you think is, is kind of going on cause you have a big mix and uh,

Speaker 2:                           00:11:54              

but one thing is that unexpected is that there is a big interest in continuing to use, uh, the, uh, established technologies of especially a film. I would have, as an example, I would use a, one of our best, uh, students from about eight years ago when I first started here at a young man named Connor hair right out of high school, one of these kids, little Spielberg had made like 50 films with his digital camera. He had a nice Panasonic DVX 100, you know, so he had made all these films in high school and he came into our film school and he shot his first super eight and he was just like looking at the screen and he was just like, his mouth was open agape. And he was like looking at it and just going, ah, you know, and the, you know, and so most of them really enjoy it.

Speaker 2:                           00:12:52              

The ones who are very much into it, uh, they in, they want to do more with it. They may not necessarily ever do it again because the producer doesn’t want to pay for it or something like that. So they do really have a huge interest in the technologies. And, and we’ve been finding that for our own list institute that uh, we are called I film institute Seattle filaments too. We, um, have kept with the film where other schools have dropped it in that has brought us students who come here specifically because they want the opportunity to work with it. Um, it’s, it’s not the only thing they learned by far, but they want the opportunity to work with it. And so they can say they’ve done it and they can say, yes, I’m a filmmaker. I’ve shot film. I know what that’s about. It was really helpful to me and they don’t get that other places.

Speaker 2:                           00:13:36              

So we see that now as a niche for us, but they then take the experience and they learned that the experience is not about the technology. And then when they work on their HD and digital projects, it’s really more about how you approach the project. Film puts discipline on you, makes you plan everything a lot better. You think about what you’re doing rather than just shooting and shooting and shooting and shooting, which even now I hear reports, a big Hollywood film sets where that’s the thing, three cameras and they roll in, they’re all in there. We’re all in the role and it drives the actors crazy, you know. And so tell me, uh, what is the curriculum here? Do you guys have a full offering? I know, um, so yeah, we’re, we are actually a college, we grant bachelor’s degrees. Uh, we don’t do the, uh, what they often call the general ed requirements and stuff.

Speaker 2:                           00:14:25              

So we don’t do English and math. You would come here with an AA or, or go somewhere else to get that and then you get the degree from us. So we are a college though. We are degree granting institution. We also have master’s degrees. So in terms of full offering, we’re, we’re what you would call a traditional film school. And we were, uh, the founder was from a traditional films go from USC. And some of the other people who have taught here, like Chris Mozilla and myself, uh, went to USC, uh, a long time ago when it was some bungalows on the USA, some old wooden bungalows on the USC campus. And, uh, so, you know, we are very comfortable with humble, uh, structures for instruction and uh, but, but our program here is, is about doing and working with teams. And what we tell people when they first arrive here is, okay, you’re gonna make a bunch of films and you’re going to learn about a whole bunch of technology and you’re gonna get to touch a whole bunch of gear and check stuff out that you don’t, haven’t had available to you before.

Speaker 2:                           00:15:24              

But the main thing you’re going to get is when you look around this room, you know, if you look side to side at the person next to you on orientation day, this is what you’re getting. Those people like Connor hair and, uh, others are students who come here. Yeah, they were making films in high school, but it was maybe them and one other person and that trying to find a whole crew of people is very, very hard that are really dedicated to do it and just are as on fire about it as you, and that’s what you get out of a good film school experience. And that’s what we provide is that ability to work together and then to learn to work together as a team.

Speaker 1:                           00:16:03              

Right. There’s a, there’s a couple of aspects of that in it. I’ve hired actually several of your alumni alumnus alumnus right from from here. And a lot of what they talk about is you produce these films, but then everybody critiques him. Yes. Which is from the boom operator to the director, the writer, the camera op, everyone looks at it and the whole class in a crew in a supportive creative are the critique you have supportive as a key there. And so that is a lesson that has really well taught here. And I see other people who’ve come from other programs and they cannot take criticism about their work. They take it very personally. Right. And that was one of the things that I actually, Travis Erdman really stressed. He said, when you produce something here at SFI, the whole class watches it and then you are able to give critique on it

Speaker 2:                           00:17:03              

and that, and that comes from our own experience from uh, uh, the, the film school that several of us went to, which was se, and that was very, very much the se way. And it was very different from where all, most of the other schools at that time in la were like, but here, I’ll just give you a funny little, not quite an anecdote, but we have a new class, a new group and they’re learning how to make super eight films. And, and I said yesterday that they would be, and then on Friday we, your films will be back from the lab and we will watch them in class and they say, I had this one woman was a Gaston before we edit them. And I says, yes, it’s dailies. We’re going to be watching what you shot. And they were like, really? Like, oh my God, how good we are.

Speaker 2:                           00:17:49              

But I said, that’s what we do. That’s what we do in movies. We watch our work and we look at what we did and what we can do better and, and if we need to do a reshoot or whatever, and then we talk about it. And it’s not about making your own little private jewelbox box thing in, in a little, uh, Garrett up in an attic and then bringing it out a year later for the world to see. That I think lends itself directly to the preparation of film production because you know that somebody, you’re not going to be able to review it yourself up in the attic. You’re going to have to share it with the producer, the director, the DP, and if you’re the camera operator on there and you, you know, wasn’t framing it quite right or you didn’t block it cry quite right as the director, then it’s for, you know, for a small group to see.

Speaker 2:                           00:18:37              

Usually they’re not, the whole crew watches a dailies, but there you watch it. And so that really keeps you on, on point to be able to watch your running. And you’ve, you see this with after they graduate, which is that they continue one that keeps their network of people they worked with, but they continue to want to come back and show us things to get our feedback. There are other classmates, they, they, they insist, they, um, they internalize that idea of getting that feedback and everything else and not, it’s not about dressed in your feelings, it’s just about getting information. And, uh, I think it’s really valuable. So you, uh, a student that transfers here starts off, uh, typically, um, with it like already with an AA, but they often they can, I mean they can either start, the, David likes David, the director of the school, he likes to call it a upside down degree or dessert before dinner, before dinner, which is especially a lot of people, young people coming out of school, especially ones who are visual learners, et cetera.

Speaker 2:                           00:19:34              

And they, they come here and, and they really want to get started. They want to make movies now and in, they’re not motivated quite behind the academic stuff. So we flip it around for a lot of them, they do the things that you would traditionally be doing at a, at a four year college in your junior and senior year, which is your major. They get to do that first at 19. And they do that. And then they go to say shoreline or a community college, uh, maybe right away or maybe a few years later when they’re a lot more motivated about and says, you know what, I’m going to finish that. But it’s, it’s a, and then they can get the bachelor’s and then they can get the bachelor’s either from us, they come back and show us this certificate. Or with some schools like shoreline, they can get their bachelor’s from there using our credits.

Speaker 2:                           00:20:16              

Uh, but it gives that, because we all know people who have been, uh, discouraged by, we were discouraged in college. You know, they get to that two year point and it just is like, seems like a long slog and you’re never gonna finish and your girlfriend wants to move to Montana and you know, this happens in life happens and then 15, 20 years later you say, you know, I want to finish that, the better job opportunity, you know, whatever. And this way it motivates them. You know, for me, it, I went to junior college right after high school and the thing that Kinda changed my look of

Speaker 1:                           00:20:48              

the world and kind of, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I was just, I knew I wasn’t going to go to college and didn’t quite figure out what was going on, but I spent a summer in Europe, came back wearing clogs, grew my hair long, kind of became an see that picture. I haven’t seen that picture yet. Well, you need to define that for me. And um, took an acting class. Oh. And uh, I remember seeing a film in the acting classes, meet the cinematographer and I had already been in a couple of shows, a couple of plays. And, and I wasn’t very good. I’m sure I wasn’t, it was junior college, La Harbor College, to be more specific, but I saw this and I go, wow, I could probably do that. That looks really fascinating. My father was an amateur photographer and, and what really kind of got it going was, I remember coming back from, from, um, camping trips and watching slideshows on Kodachrome slides from sequoia or Kings Canyon and just, man, this is amazing. And my dad would take pictures and get focus and we’d do a trick for, to photograph somewhere, something like that. And then when we played some music along with the slide show and seeing in a dark room with a big projection, it really kind of put it all together on. And I said, well, I want to go to a film, you know, a program. And so I ended up going to cal state long beach in there, a radio television film department there. But that’s, you know, I didn’t figure that out until I was 21.

Speaker 2:                           00:22:25             

  Yeah. That’s when I, uh, I was doing something similar in that I was at the University of Arizona. I liked being a student. It was okay with me. I wasn’t like, but I got in well into my sophomore year without, okay, I’m still general studies. And then it was, it was more, I liked the idea of making movies, but it seemed impossible. And so I had this great experience, which was that, uh, there was a group that would bring filmmakers to town and they would have a presentations. And a famous cinematographer came, uh, uh, William Fraker who was showing movie. He had just shot, haven’t can wait. Uh, Warren Beatty movie. This was about 1980. And, um, I went to this thing and, uh, I heard him talk and he said, this was long before the Nike ad campaign, just do it. If you want to do it, if you want to be a movies, just do it. You know, he had started and he had gone to a film school. And so the next week I got into my little Datsun and, uh, my mom and I drove out. We had some relatives to stay with in La and we went and visited a couple of campuses, which was down the street from where I live. And then we stayed with my [inaudible] street in Willington. Yup. Just tell him, we found out 15 years later that, hey, you lived on that street too? Yeah, my grandmother owns a house there too. And

Speaker 3:                           00:23:45              

so that was, um, you know, I w I said, okay, let’s check this out. And so I did. And, uh, I applied and got into one of them, got in depth c a and went the next year. But I had really been drifting at that point and I don’t, I don’t know what I probably would’ve done. We didn’t have a program. Now that’s the school in Arizona does, but I probably would’ve gone into journalism and then Blas school. So along with your, uh, super eight film, your film one Oh one, your production, you guys have a variety of clubs, tracks you can take. Yeah. Right. So what we do here is we have our trip, our program film making, which is general filmmaking like you would often get at a film school. But we’ve, in the last few years, we’ve introduced, uh, tracks we’re concentrations we call them, which is you can decide instead to concentrate on, uh, audio for film, for media.

Speaker 3:                           00:24:40              

You can concentrate on motion graphics, visual effects for media. And you can also concentrate in, this is very rare, uh, for a program like this is acting for film. Almost all programs around the country are acting for theater with maybe a little course or sometimes less than that, about how it’s different from film. And it’s very different. And of course there’s much more a career opportunity in media work, uh, creating things, whether it’s for a feature films or for the web. Uh, and so there’s maybe less than half a dozen country countries in the program programs in the country, uh, that do that. And having mentioned that, um, we started that about three years in. It’s just fantastic to have this acting program present with the actors around the energy that they bring is just amazing. As opposed to a bunch of film geeks. And then you throw in some actors in the energy of that is a, it’s just amazing.

Speaker 3:                           00:25:34              

And plus the instructors in that program, it’s, it’s wonderful. I remember in school with at, um, I was dabbling in the theater arts as well, and I was in the film partner and I go, why doesn’t, why don’t they marry that the acting program that was for acting for stage and the TV department or the t film video department together and you know, to use the actors and, and maybe, uh, shoot the performances even like that. And they just would never do it. So rare around the country were places where you have really good acting programs in, in film programs and TV programs. Excuse me. And, and, uh, like, uh, but I mean, I’ll tell a story, which, you know, I don’t know how really, ultimately it was told to me when I was there. It was current at the time, but when I was at sc, the acting program, we had nothing to do with it. Even though our buildings were literally crossed the plaza from each other. We were a hundred yards apart. Our theater was a hundred less than that, 50 yards away from their theater. And we had no interaction. And apparently the, the theater people had for years for obeyed of their acting students from interactive,

Speaker 2:                           00:26:44              

from being in student film productions that was film. And here we are in La, you know, that was film, not theater, you know. And so, uh, around about the time that I was there, they got a new director of their program and a, this new director said, heard about this. Uh, he had come in from the outside and he said, this is crazy. We’re in La. Why aren’t we interacting with the most famous film school in the world? You know, why aren’t we involved in that? So he tried to get more involved, but by that time, all of us film students, we didn’t want to use student actors. We got, we had gotten used to using Hollywood actors. We would advertise in the drama loggery memory. You’d send something in and you’d get a zillion envelopes, you know, within a week of head shots of 20 something women or men or whatever. Just like all the hopefuls and they wanted to be in your student film, you know, so they didn’t have the ability to get much attraction. And that’s one thing here. We’re all in this one building, the, you know, we’re bumping into each other in the halls, us, the uh, the motion graphics and the composers and forgot all about our wonderful music can program. Yeah. Your music, one in Philly, graduate degrees in the world in composing music for film and

Speaker 1:                           00:27:51               t

Hummie Man is a, an amazing guy. He’s, yeah, I right.

Speaker 2:                           00:27:56              

Emmy Award winning Hummie Man, uh, composed for feature films and television shows and really has developed an amazing program. Uh, the nuts and bolts and art and everything of in, it’s for people who are already composers. You have to prove that you have been doing some composition. In addition, you know that you have musical chops already that you can play a little bit in that you know about obviously reading a scoring stuff, but you have to send in composition samples and everything. It’s a real heavy duty program and there’s about a 14 students here. It’s not huge or anything. But the great thing about it is that they go and they, they compose films. They compose music for student films, not just for our films but for students. Send them in from around the world. And then the scores are performed live just like you see in those behind the scenes.

Speaker 2:                           00:28:46              

Featurettes at the end of DVDs with up to a 50 piece orchestra at, uh, uh, studio acts downtown, the big studio downtown, which records a lot of a big music acts, uh, full session musicians and the whole deal. And it’s just an amazing, I visited a few of those uh, Opportunity and the student’s conduct their scores while, uh, to these films that they, that they score them to as head. It’s crate. I get so excited about these ancillary programs cause they’re just so neat. And we had nothing like that at my whip. D Do Big shot film school that I went to. And so, so

Speaker 1:                           00:29:28              

we talked about the students of today that the young filmmakers, how it’s different, what you guys are teaching, how you’re teaching it, but the end result, do you think is a higher caliber than what came out of when we went to school?

Speaker 3:                           00:29:43              

Hmm, that’s a good question. I would say, I would say, I’d have to say neither, yes or no. Uh, we have, uh, different, you know, the, really about the same. It was kind of a loaded question. Yeah, it is. But it’s my, my answer to it is it depends on the individuals. It’s a totally individual thing. And since I have actually taught at different, and you’ve taught also, I mean it is a, I taught at a place that was more of a place for people who are going to be Khurram crew. And it was very good for that. And when I started for a few years in, in an, in Arizona and when I showed what I’d been, uh, the projects after just a year here that my students have been working on to, uh, the instructors, my friends back there, they were like flabbergasted. But part of it was that we just were attracting a very high level of student and we also weren’t trying to attract 200 students at a time.

Speaker 3:                           00:30:41              

Uh, we have like 20 students at a time in, in a, in a class. It’s not this huge number. So we only have the really the most dedicated. These are not people that have been snared in like, oh, you want to be a filmmaker, you know, uh, these are people who found us. Unfortunately, most of those colleges have closed down. The one you set up, he was at Collins College, College, college is closed down, beautiful facilities that we built. And uh, it’s closed down just, uh, four months ago they did their final classes. And what, what really begs to question is, and don’t want to put you on the spot, but does somebody who wants to make films, do they need to go to film school? Yeah. And that’s a good question. I mean, there are obviously people who can do it on their own, you know, there’s the Robert Rodriguez and everything else.

Speaker 3:                           00:31:30              

And that’s true for a lot of professions. I think the great thing, like I said before, what you get out of film school, because now it is very different. You can watch these DVDs and tutorials and everything else and you can get all this technical, get up to speed on all this stuff plus the tools. You buy an h DSLR and you get pro, you subscribe to premier for 20 bucks a month or whatever and you can start going, but you’re just one person and filmmaking as a collaborative milling and you can’t make a film without others anymore than you can build a skyscraper or even not, you know, ranch house without other people. And so the experience of film school is what a good film school delivers. It’s not the, you know, cause everything we teach technically is going to be out of date in five years anyways.

Speaker 3:                           00:32:14              

So it’s the process and working with people, the process, like you said, of, of, of, of critiquing of those things. And those are the things you’re not going to get just by reading about them or watching a video about them. You’re going to get them by experiencing in the pain of it, of like having your stuff be critiqued and also the experience of giving helpful critique to somebody else. That’s what, that’s what I teach. That’s what it’s really for is getting that. And also it gives you a structure when you’re working on your own, you know, and you’re trying to find time to do something. It takes a really long time to do things. Like for example, here we have a very compressed program in, in, in uh, it’s five quarters and in that time you will do at least 10 projects. You know, more than half of them will be sort of individual, their, your projects.

Speaker 3:                           00:33:01              

Even though you work with them on others and others, you’ll be as part of a crew. That’s a lot of projects to do. That’s very hard to make happen on your own. Um, in plus you get the experience of working on other people’s projects and the x and what that’s like. And also just being exposed even to the projects. You’re not working on your very close proximity to see what they’re doing and how they’re doing. This cool musical that takes place in a Catholic girls school. You know, it’s like I never would have thought, how did they make that happen? You know, whatever, um, have whatever gave them the idea to do that, you know, uh, that seeing how that all works and learning from their experiences, you, you don’t get that kind of firsthand thing from just watching a youtube.

Speaker 3:                           00:33:45              

Um, so let’s talk a bit about you. This is what you’ve been doing for the last 10 years, eight years, uh, actually teach for you before you got on board here. You were also doing it part time, teaching it. Um, I remember a picture you showed me of you standing with the fairly large Eng Camera on your shoulder and electronic news gathering camera for the people that don’t know that. And I believe you are on the launch pad at Cape Canaveral and I was on the launch tower with they, so 3d Eng Camera. Yeah. So you have had a history of yourself. You’re a DP, cinematographer trained and I’ve hired you over the years. Yeah. And you’re an accomplished a craftsman crafts person at that. Um, more back. Yeah. Well, you know, we’re all learning, so yeah, we’re all learning. Yeah. So what I want to ask you is what is their most rewarding shoot you’ve ever been on a, that might be that shoot you remember the picture from?

Speaker 3:                           00:34:53              

I would turn to in terms of like, this was kind of odd. That was a shoot where we were shooting 3d footage for to see how it would work for making a museum exhibit video. And what was nice about it was we kind of had carte blanche access. We just went everywhere at Kennedy Space Center that we wanted to and took three d video for about a three week period. And uh, we could go anywhere. We had better access than anybody in and uh, because we were doing it for Kennedy Space Center and that was just a blast. But it does remind me a lot of the relief fulfilling things. You know, I, I didn’t go on to do a feature film career. I did one dentist financed 35 millimeter feature, but I f one of the, I ended up doing all these things that people say, oh, that’s corporate or that’s whatever.

Speaker 3:                           00:35:39              

But you end up traveling a lot. You go to all these places all over the world or all over your state. Uh, and you meet people who do interesting things. I’ve met the inventor of the hepatitis vaccine, the developer of the hepatitis vaccine B vaccine, uh, met people who are world famous brain surgeons, et cetera. A lot of medical things like that, or rocket scientists. Right? Or you go around and you, and you see all this cool stuff that, you know, there’s an advantage to that over sitting around on a soundstage, listening, doctors talk, right? It’s a different experience. And so that’s been fulfilling. I can share with our listeners one of my favorite shoots that I’ve been on with you as the one where I threw a light and no, uh, no, no, no. The one where we were in la shooting for a friend of yours, of Vladimir.

Speaker 3:                           00:36:29              

I have a lot of mere lying and we were Nia hospital operating room. We were shooting a trans vaginal bladder stem reduction. Wow. You really do. Right. I think you got a little white during that, but I, you put me on the camera, the closeup camera and this, this elderly woman was in the stirrups there and obviously she was already out, but the, the gynecologists and the urologists that showed up to to perform this very technical operation, I assume or maybe it’s not, but they were like a couple of a slapstick comedians if you remember. They gave forgotten but now, yeah, they are kind of pointing and laughing and go. Okay. And I think they were just chumming it up for the camera, but that might’ve been like old hat for them. That was a, yeah, I’ve run into that before. I remember one when I was doing 3d videos on another surgery.

Speaker 3:                           00:37:24              

This was a surgery thing with a Anthony Coogan. You met Anthony and we did a lot of 3d videos and we were doing these brain surgery things which were very long and everything. But we have this, one Japanese had lead surgeon and he was the world expert at this. Incredibly accomplished at this, but he would, he would make these comments about, you know, he’s gone, oh, it’s such a bloody tumor. So much blood, so much blood. And Anthony would be blanching and going, oh well what’s going on? What’s going on? You know, it’s like, you know, it was just the way he expressed himself. It is very funny how surgeons are an interesting, a very interesting group. You know, I want to flash on, on what you just talked about is the amount of experiences you get from doing corporate video. That’s kind of what my life has been. I also chose, or I tried to get into La Hollywood when I was, when I grew up there, but when I moved away, I got into action sports and the amount of, and there’s a story right there where you and I first met here in Seattle, but we, you were applying for a crew position for a company I was working for in Lake Tahoe, which we figured later on

Speaker 1:                           00:38:35              

that you had. Oh yeah. Right. You want to talk to you a couple of years earlier when you were at that. But anyway, the breadth of experiences that you get from just whatever you know, from shooting in a aluminum smelter plant up and burn down for in Telco to the getting all your credit cards wide. Yeah. From the ED magnetic force field to, to, you know, for me going to, you know, a Singapore for shooting for uh, Microsoft and sending me on basically on around a world trip by myself with the, uh, HVX 200 and hiring a crew everywhere. So I was a director, camera man shooting all around the world and just shooting vps of technology companies talking about Microsoft products. It was just really cool. And, and what about the, um, we both worked for Microsoft at their studios, right?

Speaker 2:                           00:39:30              

I was just noticing, did you notice the Sean and knife is going to be planning a shonen knife is going to be playing, uh, it, you know, the Japanese girl pop band from forever 35 years. And uh, somebody posted about that and I remembered two, almost 20 years ago shooting them in the Microsoft studios for some reason they were doing a thing.

Speaker 1:                           00:39:52              

Who was your buddy? His name that, uh, Matt. Matt, not Ebert. Yeah. He lives on a farm in Pennsylvania. Yeah. He and I went to, um, Austin several times to go shoot Dell for Dell and that was really fun with him. He was, we would go to the fabric store and get all these, uh, silky fabrics and we would kind of stage Dell laptops on this silky fabric. It was really kind of bizarre. And there was nobody from Dell who was giving any art direction or anything. So you and I would show up. They put us in a room, we’d shoot computers for a couple of days and fly home. You know, it’s the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s,

Speaker 2:                           00:40:32              

I’m still a lot the same. I mean, one of the things that when you were were on a mailing list, I know for cinematographers and uh, we, you know, uh, which is now a very old fashioned thing to be on a mailing list, but one of the things about the people who post their in the questions ask, Hey, I’m going to do this and I’m going to do that is very often, most of the time they’re not asking about for doing some feature movie. They’re asking about for doing a commercial or a web video or something else. The uh, but doing some very complicated stunk camera thing or whatever. You know, I uh, like, oh I want the, rotate the camera at 90 degrees while there’s a lot of water pouring down or something and I wasn’t smoking it. How have you guys done that?

Speaker 2:                           00:41:14              

And they’ll say, oh, call this guy in Idaho. He’s the world’s specialist at that. Or they call this guy in Birmingham. Is that the CML list? Yeah, the CML, that cinematographers mailing list or this guy in, uh, Manchester, you know, cause it’s worldwide or it’s Singapore. You’ve got contacts for your shoots with when you went to Singapore from that list. But the great thing is is that these people talking about these experiences that aren’t big budget feature filmmaking, sometimes they are, but a lot times they’re just about making some video for some company in uh, Alabama or something. But they got the chance to do some really wild, crazy, innovative, creative stuff.

Speaker 1:                           00:41:50              

So I think for me at least, that the hardest part is to continue to, to, and as, as the technologies become very inexpensive, it’s harder and harder to charge what you charge before. And that’s a lot of older guys are, you know, talking about the people who have been in the industry for a while. Talk about that. And so what really kind of you have to do to set yourself apart? There is a place for those videos that are produced very cheaply and expensively there threw away videos based on my, I called them brochure videos. Yeah. Anything like that. And then you’ll come back and do another one a in a year or six months when something else is new. But anything else that takes something that would be come evergreen or have a shelf life for something that

Speaker 2:                           00:42:38              

what’s really quite something that needs a good script. Yeah. And do you, and you want talent, whether it’s just a spokesperson or you want to have a scene with actors knowing how to set that up so it doesn’t look amateurs. So let’s, Oh, this looks like a scene, like a movie scene or a TV scene. This is what we want. Knowing how to stage that, you know, I’ve, I’ve had the experience of having somebody tell me, well, we’ve been trying to use these people and their event videographers, and they just want to, even if it’s just filming a disassembly of a gadget thing, you know, that they sell, it’s, they want to just put the camera, went into the room and then zoom in on the, at the other end of the room where you’re doing your thing and they don’t really understand how to put that together. Even a thing that to us is as simple as a, how to use this new, uh, multi spectrometer m meter or something. Right? No, you gotta break it up into shots and figure it all out and get the exact angles. Exactly right. So there is no reflections and a lot of that only comes from experience. Um, and n and then discipline in paying attention to what you’re doing.

Speaker 4:                           00:43:40              


Speaker 1:                           00:43:40              

One of the things I wanted to touch on is, is the notion of getting work and working for new people and also people are getting in the industry and, and facing that. And how does one stand apart? And I guess the idea is that there’s no

Speaker 1:                           00:43:59              

rock not overturn to find who’s going to use what you do. Right. So, um, if you start out and you want to go on this path to try to get it, become a specialist in something, just go out and do the SPEC reels, do those spec kind of shots and try to get that kind of work. But the reality is, is if you’re doing this for a living that, you know, basically you become such a generalist that you could shoot a lot of different things. And that’s personally where I am in my career. I, I’ve a lot of these things, we have a staff and you know, I, I want to try to specialized in some kind of different things that set you apart only because I, I feel that one of those things you can really hone your skills on and even being almost, you know, um, you know, not young guy doing this for a long time.

Speaker 1:                           00:44:51              

That I guess just told you earlier. I, there’s still learning things. There’s things I’m learning how to podcast. Yeah. Learning how to podcast like this right here is, um, is the way that the technology I’m still very hungry for. I’m very hungry for learning. I think they call that a lifelong learner on things. I mean, I wake up every morning and read a cinematography stuff, uh, directing things at the latest technology on camera. But would it find, what I do find though is that that is holding me back at some point. You can so easily get caught up in technology. That’s a very comfortable place to be. But to try to push yourself side. Yeah. But you have to know that stuff. You totally need to know that to be a working DP or working camera guy, you gotta Ha and it’s, it’s a lot of information.

Speaker 1:                           00:45:44              

And I also find that falling back and on the things that he learned coming up through the ranks that fall in. And a lot of it though has to deal with the very low tech things. I e lighting, although lighting instruments have changed that 20 that you hurled across the room at me. I don’t think it was at me, but it was, cause I think around this, the switch was bad or something, which I have that, that light, by the way, that Travis I think rebuilt it for me. So anyway, that light has been the same basic light for 30, 40 years. Right. And you can still light a scene with that. I mean, granted we’re going to other technologies for, uh, led and lesser, um, like, uh, power consumption. But the, the idea of putting things in front of a light, putting, you know, shaping the light, negative film, all these things are as old as filmmaking and those are the things that people don’t really gravitate to.

Speaker 2:                           00:46:46              

Exactly. And the other thing, I mean, the other world, which is the world of audio, I mean, you’re more of an audio person than I am. Uh, but, uh, I really like audio and respected. I don’t put myself out there as an audio person, but I truthfully, when I’m teaching production audio, I, which means just simply being on set with microphones and recording a really clean signal. I’m, there’s not much difference between what I’m teaching and what my instructor at USC taught 35 years ago. It’s very s the machine is takes cards instead of tape, but otherwise it’s pretty much the same.

Speaker 3:                           00:47:28              

You know what’s interesting and what I’ve been toying with the new camera we have or newer camera we have is a Sony, um, f 55, right? I noticed that on the XLR inputs on it. You can go Mike Klein or a e s e B. U. So it got really, it got me thinking so you can actually touch to the digital, you don’t on that instead of a separate digital connector. Yeah. So what I was thinking though is too, and, and you get I think eight channels of audio or four channels per side on that, but I was, we were considering going back to a two system audio format for dialogue recording it at, um, let’s see, 24 bit or no, 24 bit, 48 48 k or else 990620490 six to get a really, you know, a lot more great subtle resolution in the audio signal, but recording it into an and a recorder, external recorder and just sending a scratch track to the camera.

Speaker 3:                           00:48:33              

Right. But with this, you can actually use I believe a, um, digital recorder on and send the digital signal, right. [inaudible] clean. You don’t have to worry about the preamps etc. In the camera. You’re just recording to the 55, which is, and um, if there’s anybody listening who is an audio guru or knows that for sure, please. That’s interesting. Because of that should give you essentially the same recording, uh, in the camera. And the only question would be, you know, the the working method, which is having the cable connecting the camera, you know, and dealing with that. But I think, well that’s one of the cool things that’s really happened at the mid low end when we’ve come up through video, it’s always been all about recording into the recorder and then into the camera, you know, into the video recorder into the Beta Cam. And then, uh, the video world was very resistant to doing the film technique of having a separate recorder, the Nagara from the camera, which gave you the best quality and everything else.

Speaker 3:                           00:49:32              

And he didn’t get the best quality by recording to the video camera on videotape. It wasn’t, it wasn’t maximizing, I don’t ever remember. The only time I do that, remember as if you did multi-track, if you’re doing multi-track from band or something, that’s the only time you would see people doing it. And then with the introduction of the, of the famous canon five d mark to h DSLR, which just had, could do audio, but as it was and set up well for it at all. And Simultaneously, eight years ago, the zoom recorders had come out, which were little $200 recorders that you could record really nice wave files and, and uh, suddenly the video world just flipped and its acceptance of dual system recording of having a recorder and a camera and they could be in their own world. You just had to get a sync point, you know, get a clap, do that. And now the audio recorders could concentrate

Speaker 1:                           00:50:27              

on getting the best audio recording and being in the best place for that. And the, the camera crew could be very happy not being cabled to the audio crew and, and doing their best work. Yeah. You know, I, uh, that’s a big change I think with the, uh, Canon five d mark too. And also read doesn’t have audio or you have to buy it. It’s a pain. And yeah, so that was one thing, uh, interesting story. I was just recently, in fact, I was shooting with a, uh, five d mark three for an event just recently for zoomies and it was at the Museum of flight. It was a Vic Mensa is a rapper who was performing at this skateboarding contest. And I was getting B roll for a culture video that we were doing for them. And I was actually just recording the audio on the camera of an eye.

Speaker 1:                           00:51:19              

One of my crew lost a little Sennheiser that goes on top of the five d. And so I was just using the internal mic then, but I had set it up through, um, magic bullet, no magical answer in magic liner and I would gives you a lot of different audio controls. So I set those up just right. So I was getting good audio, big loud band and the um, the client calls and says, oh, hey, did you happen to get audio on any of that stuff? And I told him, I said, well, I was shooting bureaus so I wasn’t really paying that much attention to audio, but I found the clip. And, uh, there are guys who are doing the live feed recording. It was just way too loud to get who the, they were announcing the winners of the skateboard contest. And so they actually use the audio on the five B that I set up that had kind of saved them and also, uh, sent some, uh, clips of this performer just on camera.

Speaker 1:                           00:52:15              

Mike. At least it was a better wow what those other guys got. So there you go. That’s funny. Yeah. So yeah, it’s always those kinds of stories and also knowing what to do and how to manipulate those controls and know what you’re going for, which does kind of stay the same over technologies I think, and I might go out on a limb here, is that guys who have trained through the ranks and you were handed that DSLR to shoot, handled it fairly well. Right? And it’s the ones who were, you know, open to that kind of a change. There were other guys who just would not ever think about shooting on the right freaking it’s DSLR. It’s bullshit. But the thing is is that you have this art film student that comes out to shoots on a big sensor camera and looks cinematic, uses, you know, plugins. He shoots it, you know, and it kind of blows your shifts. It’s really funny because you really, you really want to try those things. You see this thing and you see, oh, they got that and they use this. I want to try that. Or you see something and you realize on your own that this could be, hi, what can I do with this? But one of the things that I notice is because so

Speaker 2:                           00:53:25              

many of my students, for example, have h DSLRs and they’ve been shooting projects on them. And, uh, the comment I get the first time they use a reel, I’ll do air quotes here, a real video camera even. I’m a simple Panasonic, but that has all the correct audio. And they say, Oh, I see what you’re talking about. All the controls are easy to reach. I’m not fighting the camera. I don’t need three adapters to get this. And I don’t have to do this weird thing to hear my headphone output. It just is all there and it all just works. And they say, yeah, and that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s better. It’s great to have an age DSLR. Um, you know, TV shows have been, I mean, dramatic network shows have been shot with them, you know, uh, as a, to to solve a problem or to to do a really creative thing.

Speaker 2:                           00:54:17              

You know, an episode of house is what I’m thinking of right here, which had a great episode. They didn’t go after that. They didn’t shoot any more episodes that way, but it really worked for that particular episode. You, you can, these all have purposes. The fact that you can have a camera that costs, I figured it out. Inflation adjusted. You know, when I was a kid, I had a dream camera. I want an Olympus OEM to 35 millimeter SLR. You know, I bought one, you know, in 1979, you know, and it costs me $400. And then I bought some lenses and stuff and they were $800. Uh, you know, by the time I got up to, you know, I’d spent flashing at everything close to a thousand dollars, um, had it for years and years. It was stolen a few years ago. But, and I realize when you look at these cameras that I actually am spending about the same amount of money.

Speaker 2:                           00:55:05              

Maybe I spent more back then inflation adjusted for these age DSLRs then also shoot movies. So the fact that for the price of a consumer still camera, you can move it mainly, you can just have it available to experiment. You get an idea, go out and do it. You don’t just go out and do it and see what happens. Again, that’s a wonderful new thing. You want to try lens, go down to the camera store and rental Lens. You’ve got the body plus you can only shoot stills with it, you know, uh, and, and it is, and it’s great to see these things and experiment with them and people get all excited about, you know, a lot of the big, high end cameras. But it is really cool that you can take little eno, Sony, Lumix, these, um, especially those, the small ones, the micro four thirds end it.

Speaker 2:                           00:55:50              

And then also these ones that we kind of sneer at sometimes black magic, you know, has some weird design decisions about how they make the camera. But boy, the fact that you can have a camera like that for $3,000 or more, less with black magic case, uh, and do the things that you do with it. Um, yeah, you want to get on those things and play with them, you know, see what they do. And that’s with it. And that’s the thing. You, and one of the things I think is real interesting because when I was in Los Angeles, I got to know very well a, a great special effects, uh, artist, uh, businessman to Linwood Dunn who is considered basically the father of optical printing, which is the way they did special effects in movies for 70 years. And he worked on everything from citizen Kane to star Trek.

Speaker 2:                           00:56:35              

And you know, when I knew him, he was in his late eighties and his, uh, lifelong learning principle, he was always interested in what was happening next. What was, he would drill me with questions. Will, how can I do this? What can can we do with this? I just heard about this, can we do this? And I’d find myself being sometimes the more negative one. Ah, no. You know, he was so, it’s not an age thing. You find young people who are already stuck in the mud, you know, you’ve experienced it. I know with a couple of your employees who are already like stuck in the mud, you know, there’s like, you know, well I don’t know about that. You know, and you find older folks, um, you know, our age in much older who are always like, what could I do? What if I took this thing and this thing and combined it?

Speaker 2:                           00:57:20              

What would I get? So it’s not an age thing, you know? And I find that in my students too. I’ve got some who are really excited to try new things and all about the new things and others who aren’t. Um, so it’s, it’s something you cultivate. What do you think about snap chat? I have the vaguest ideas of what snapchat is and that kind of embarrassed me because I always used to be about the new thing. Uh, in terms of the net and the web, you know, I was online pretty early in terms of having a webpage and stuff, AOL and all, but also then having my own account and building my own webpage with html and 95 and doing that. And I kind of kept up with things. And then Twitter, Twitter broke me. You know, I did my space, I did Facebook, I did all these big commercial things that come out, played with all of them. And then Twitter, I just like, I got an account and then, and then I haven’t kept up. I have to admit, I haven’t kept up. You know, it’s, it’s, you know, I, it’s

Speaker 3:                           00:58:26              

what I find is it’s, it’s challenging the 140 character, her iron 60 character, I think it’s 140, right, is challenging to be witty. But, uh, what a lot of people default to do is just, uh, aggregate stuff. So you’re retreating stuff. So yeah. So that’s, that’s kind of just a swirl of, of, and I have to admit, I have my Facebook feed is when I make a post on fake posts, it goes to Twitter, but it does discipline me on Facebook, which is what I do is I try to keep it under 144 characters, which by the way, you could discipline your website. A D does get a lot of traffic to that. Yeah. The, what is that site is the site of my website is just, it’s old school. It’s, but it has a tutorial on burials or, or blue screen, right. Lighting a bliss popular and it’s, yeah, very detailed. And I put that up there in 96 and it shows

Speaker 2:                           00:59:22              

you the advantage. What it tells you is mainly about not the technical side of how to use software to make the composite about how to put a background image, uh, behind a something you shoot with blue screen or green screen. It’s more about how do you actually light it and how do you set up to shoot it. And there’s still a net for a long time there was almost nothing else. Now some other people have put some things up, but uh, because it’s been there so long, it gets a lot of traffic because the, the, the engines that the, which we called search engines are trained to recognize things that had been there a long time. Uh, they know that’s been there in that the content has been about the same topic. It’s not, uh, trolling for ads or click bait or something like that.

Speaker 2:                           01:00:03              

It’s a real thing. And so, um, I it, I haven’t checked in quite a while, but I know a couple of years ago it was still getting more traffic than say then, well, my school sail film institute gets, um, it’s a weird thing, that whole web search thing, but it’s also good to have things that people are planning to make webpages. I, I’ve always believed in, make something about, uh, something that you really know a lot about, are passionate about, and then that is not necessarily a super popular thing because if it’s a super popular thing, 50 dozen other people have also done pages about that. And you’re completing in a very noisy environment instead if you have a specialty or something. So what if it’s a small thing? You have the whole world, you have 7 billion people to talk to. Um, and that is refreshing. And when I got on the web, that was the coolest thing.

Speaker 2:                           01:00:54              

People would be contacting me, but they’d seen my page and they, I had my photography pages and techniques and they would write to me about them. So what kind of paint do I use? What do I do for this? How do I, where do I get this? Where do you recommend, I don’t get that as much anymore because there’s so many tutorials available, but you know, you’d get an inquiry from Malaysia and that’s pretty exciting, right. To, you know, you know, that didn’t exist before that or did somebody just out of the blue would communicate with you that way because you weren’t a bestselling author. You hadn’t been on TV. If somebody had somehow find you, found you for this little, this skill that you had, you know, so, um, I say go to it. If you want to make something, don’t worry about what people say or how successful it is. Just put a page up there, put a blog up there. Uh, talk about, you know, your underwater knitting or whatever it is and how excited you are about it and you’ll connect with other people.

Speaker 1:                           01:01:49              

Yeah. Without a doubt. Right. Um, we’re going to wrap up here pretty soon, but I do want to ask you one last question. Uh, this last summer you experienced something you were very fond of for many summers in a row and you came back to that and, uh, and you actually, you brought me along with you one year that which was life changing. It was, it was amazing. It was really cool. But how do you think burning man has kind of formed you the way that you are or do you,

Speaker 2:                           01:02:20              

how do, what do you think about that? What is, that’s, that’s kind of interesting. It has changed. It did, you kind of changed the direction of my life. And so did people, I remember you pre burning man and, uh, I loosened up maybe a bit, a lot, a lot. And yet without much of the psychoactive substances that do it for most people, it was the experiences that did it. And, uh, I had um, uh, started going, uh, started, uh, met new people, kind of found my people, sort of a different kind of coming out experience as, uh, uh, what you experienced in the gay community where people say, Oh, I found my people. I never really found my people there, but at burning man I did, which was these hyper creative people, people who had just like, who literally would die if they couldn’t just be making things, you know, in creating art and what they’re different by then if their definition of art was this giant Mad Max flame throwing car.

Speaker 2:                           01:03:17              

Or maybe it was little things made of old popsicle sticks that they burned in little effigies and a little mystical, magical ceremony, whatever it was. But they were just on fire to do things to make things and whether they traveled great distances or not. So I got into that and participate in that and went to many, many times. I’m like 13 times over a 15 year period and haven’t been going as much. I’ve been really busy. It was really a big part and it was lifesaving. When I lived in Arizona. That was my vacation to get away from my very stressful schoolwork at the school. I was out there, um, very challenging time there. But then, uh, I kind of fell away from it and didn’t, uh, I thought, well, I’ll go again if I have a big project to do. I come up with something.

Speaker 2:                           01:04:03              

And then a friend of mine, uh, he came up with this idea for doing this fun thing that he called actor Roci, which was a very, uh, to describe. It’s basically, instead of songs, you pick out scenes from movies and you do it with another person and you read prompters and we have cameras set up and we, uh, we record you performing a scene from a movie, say everything from blade runner to a 40 year old virgin. Right. And it was amazing how popular this was. We just put up a three camera studio in the desert on the, in the dust. Uh, we recorded, we had prompters and everything and we had a director, uh, uh, Robert, my boyfriend was the director and he would give people notes and he’d have them perform at once and then you give them notes back about how to do it.

Speaker 2:                           01:04:51              

And they actually got into it. That’s what they said. And they said that that’s what they appreciated, that whole experience. And then they got a little USB drive. We made them a little, a little recording of it and gave it to them and that they walked away with. It was just so fun. And I’m trying to figure out, well no, I want to recreate it again in a city. But it was fun to go out there and recreate it and do something. I didn’t, I don’t like going as a tourist and just to see, I love seeing the audit, the premise of burning man. It’s taken a come and be a poser

Speaker 3:                           01:05:18              

or view thing. You know, you want to be an active participant. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s been the big change maybe over the last, not so much the size, but because of the size, the number of people who are bucket listing it. Um, a lot more of that people who are going for one time only just to say they’ve gone in and uh, so you have, uh, but all that means is for the people who are creating things that you have more spectators and have your audience. So well, Stephen Bradford, uh, it’s been a pleasure. We have sat down and had a nice little conversation about modern filmmaking. I don’t know exactly if it was specifically about that, but I think we noodled around and that was the premise of this. And, um, I appreciate your time and thank you very much.